Transponders in Dirt Karting

[outlaw19]

Transponders are being used at Northern Territory Championships this year. It will be interesting to have the feed back from this title. The initial expense to set up the hardware and software I don't know if it can be justified. It would ease the work load on lap scorers. If it is decided for AIDKA clubs to take transponders on board will it just be another expense to turn new people away. I am undecided at present I would like to see the results and then put it to all clubs and get their views. Personally I would have to buy 3 and that's quite an expense.

[John]

That's interesting News. I have raised the question a number of times in the AIDKA arena and each time the response has been that it is too costly and the idea immediately dismissed.

The last time I checked the transponders were approximately $350 each and could have been cheaper in the case of a bulk purchase.

Do you know where the transponders have been loaned/hired from?

I have a very good understanding of what is involved with the processes from entries to results and the one item I believe to be long overdue is transponders.

As you have indicated they would assist the Tower Officials (Lap scorers) especially in the case of large fields and drivers being lapped etc.

I don't race but when I look at the cost relative to other items that drivers purchase such as tachos, temperature guages etc then it just becomes another part of the standard kart equipment. It is a once of purchase other than if it would require repairs.

How much do some drivers spend on tyres or engine rebuilds in a season?

I have liaised with AMB a number of times in Australia but because of a total lack of interest by AIDKA it went to the back burner each time.

From memory I think you mentioned that you were on the AIDKA Council Outlaw19. Send me a message and I'll give you my contact details so I can let you know where my involvement is associated.

[tom]

I raced at a Morgan meeting 11 years ago where transponders were trialled.. While it was good to see the different lap times of drivers in the heat, i think the general consensus was that they were overrated as far as lap scoring was concerned.

Even when using transponders you still need to lap-score as a backup.

Unless you are interested in sending out groups of karts and having qualifying sessions, i really can't see much of an advantage.

[John]

Although the lap times is a secondary interest factor for the drivers. I agree that in Dirt Kart racing the track condition can be so variable compared to bitumen that lap times are not as much of a bench mark for kart setup.

Having been closely involved with the lap scoring and results side of the organization I believe that the transponders would be of great benefit to the Tower Officials.

Although the Tower Officials will still need to manage the lap scoring operations they would not need to full time lap score but monitor the system and take over if required.

The main benefit is the assistance to the Tower Officials and benefits to drivers is secondary other than having automated finishing position data.

It was a similar situation with the current AIDKA Grid Draw and Results system. It simply assisted the Tower Officials by making their job easier and at the same time the drivers (hopefully) appreciated that the results were automatically calculated and available for their reference.

Looking forward to some positive feedback from the Tower Officials at the NT Titles.

[tom]

Don't get me wrong, i'm not against the idea of transponders.. The only real argument here is if the benefit is worth the cost. If AIDKA decide to go down this path i hope there is full disclosure of the process (including cost and feedback from every club) involved.

I feel that especially some of the smaller clubs would loose members from this. I know a lot of karters that run on a budget of less than $1000 for the year. Being forced to buy a transponder would put them on the sidelines.

I'm also keen to hear feedback from Alice Springs. Good on them for giving it a go!

[John]

I believe we are all on similar wavelengths.

Like everything it needs proper evaluation including taking the cost into consideration.

I also congratulate Alice Springs for being prepared to test the transponder system.

[stackas]

Great topic!
Transponders in AIDKA has been the topic of conversation at many meetings over the past few titles!
Tom I understand your experience 11 years ago, but advancements in technology just in the last year (let alone 11) have been incredible to say the least. These things are relied on in some pretty big paying sports now days and down the 100ths....
Your concerns about cost are valid, the systems and the units for the karts are not cheap, but they and not a lot in the grand skeem of costs as John so rightly points out. Never the less we 'do' cater for all budgets in Dirt karting and that is exactly why it is a fantastic sport that attracts so many, on all sorts of budgets :-)
The AKA started out in a similar way, using them at Titles first.
Smaller clubs will not suffer, I don't see the need at smaller clubs/ meetings for this equipment to be used! However Titles are a must now. Not everybody enjoys change but this is 2010 and this technology will reduce the workload of tower stuff drastically.
Not to mention the information is great for drivers & crews. Yes the track changes from race to race, but you only need to compare for that race or practice session. No different on the bitumen, the track is contantly changing!
When you have 300 nominations for the SA title, 350 for the Nationals, it's a huge job and this is all automated.
My opinion is, mine only!
AIDKA speak with John, he created the 'Quickgrid' system, this type of stuff is his bread and butter!
AIDKA spend our money wisely and buy the equipment to make there lives easier at the Titles (Which they run)
Yes! Some people will need some training and if they are not trained, of course it will fail. But if AIDKA get it right, it will be exciting times.
I am sure initially we could lease the units on the karts, as part of an increased nomination cost, the 'majority' would not mind too much. Anything to make the meeting run smoother, easier and quicker, which might even mean more than a 6 lap heat and 8 lap final at these big shows, is GREAT for the sport!!!
That's why those that have been to Alice Springs Titles are addicted, heaps of races/ laps. Why else do we do it?
Obviously depending on the lease, how many big shows you run, how many class's you race, your budget, then it would have to be factored in to each individuals own cost/ budget. A lot of people, familys & teams race all the titles, for them it may be cheaper to buy the units...
Take care and safe karting!

With respect,
Adrian, WA.

[tom]

Good idea to lease transponders to karters at title events.

I understand technology has improved over the last 11 years. Just look at the trouble AKA are having with their integrated system to see that it is not as simple as some make out though..

In my opinion AKA made a big mistake in trying to develop their own system to work with the AMB transponders. There are other karting organisations around the world that have systems already tried and tested, to me it would make sense to purchase a complete system that is already proven when the time comes.

The other advantage of delaying the decision is that transponder technology is getting cheaper every year!

In any case it is good to see open and positive discussion, much more chance of making a sensible decision when the right people are involved throughout.

[outlaw19]

There have been various options on how to make them available to drivers already been spoken about at the council meeting for the if and when they maybe taken up for use. I think the main thing is to have the trial see how well it does or doesn't work and what software suits dirt karting applications.
One of our club members who was a state place getter plate holder last year has now gone over to the other side and is racing on the bitumen tracks and they have had no problems with the transponder set up. I think it is a case of how things evolve from the initial instigation period. It would be really unrealistic of any club to think it won't having teething problems but most can be fixed.

[John]

Hi Adrian thanks for the positive comment.

I have made contact with Outlaw19 via email and we have opened up a good communication channel over the last couple of days about this and some other topics of interest.

The AMB Timing systems are well tested and as pointed out are used in a very wide variety of sports.

I'm not aware of what AKA have implemented (if anything) to manage their grid draws and results in association with the AMB Timing system so can not really comment on the problems Tom as highlighted.

There are obviously "off the shelf" software packages that are used at kart hire tracks etc so as Tom indicated a full "turn key" solution could be purchased if it suited. Typically the available packages do not suit your exact requirements and so the need to customize the software is necessary.

The AMB Timing system uses a software application called "Orbits" that has a competitors database to store necessary information such as Name, Race Number, Transponder Number, Class and lots of other information. It can also be used to manage some various grid draws including random draw, reverse etc but not to the extent of the AIDKA grid formula. It also would not calculate tied positions etc as per the AIDKA calculations.

I have spent quite a bit of time "playing" with the Orbits evaluation software to see how it might benefit AIDKA Tower Officials and competitors. It could immediately be used in the role of lap scoring and produce the race results that could be entered into the existing result system as they are now.

With some development the competitor data should be able to be exported from the current grid management system and into the Orbits system. This would ensure that there wasn't an added overhead placed on the Tower Officials and Nominations Secretary. Longer term it is envisaged that the race results process could become more automated into the Results System.

There is some good discussion taking place, nice to see.

[Kart 17]

I as a karter would hope that this technology only gets used at large events like titles or meeting which attract over 200 karts. For some of the country clubs this would kill them as they are struggling at the current time to make up numbers. Unless a club is constantly getting over 150 karts then I suggest people stay away from this system. Although it has many benefits I hope it only gets used at titles or large events.

Just my 2 Cents