The finals should count

[The finals should count]

Bitumen karts, speedway, afl and a large number of sports all have the final winner is the winner. I believe the time has come for AIDKA to move away from ideas that originated over 20 years ago.
I have always been an advocate of this regardless of my finishing position. At the moment the finals are a glorified heat.
People say that it creates sheep stations, but here are some pointers;
1. the 20 point system means anyone who drops a heat through no fault of their own will struggle to make up points, this rules out the 'what if I get knocked out in the final' argument. You get knocked out in any race and the 20 point system dictates that you will not make up the points.
2. Sheepstations. If the 200open class with 16 on the track can finish a final when winner takes all, and have no other major incidents, then the others can follow. but the biggest issue is the overly complicated rules that leave to much interpretation. This is one occasion where AIDKA should look at NASR karting rules. They back their officals and if you call an offical a prick or an a#$ehole you will be instantly banned and possibly fined. The other good thing about NASR is you know where you stand. You pass a kart before acceleration line and you go to the back, no question. drivers are sick of hearing rules and watching them be broken with no penalty. This is more a rule book issue as it places to many decisions in the hands of the stewards.
3. AIDKA allows 16 karts in the final. But in some cases only 4-6 karts have any chance. Why allow 16 on the track. You have guys in the back of the field trying to prove a point in full knowledge that they have no chance anyway. Imagine the guy who starts from 16, drives really well because he knows he still has a chance and makes positions up and gets a trophy. Thats the stuff that gets people talking and spectators/future karters interested, not this boring %^$ we have at the moment.

as I am currently a guest heres my details
200 open driver
AIDKA license number 34
email: [e-mail]

[outlaw19]

These are the sort of things that need bringing up at rule changes meeting. Unfortunately it is too late for this year as they closed Monday 31st May. Put the detail there and put your rationale for discussion. Some things could have merit to them. Good comments worth discussing

[tom]

Good points there. I don't mind either way, i like to race with all the fastest karts at the front of the field. Whatever system makes that happen the most will be my favourite.

I like the idea of 5 races, but only drawing positions for the first 2, then have highest points to the front for the 3rd race, then a pre-final and final with karts starting in the order they finished the preceding race.

I think the current system is more likely to produce a wider variety of winners, and although it may be less nail-biting in the finals, it is good to see different people win meetings, (and it is good for the sport as far as participation goes)

[John]

Some good discussion points but dropping a heat in the current 20 point system does not necessarily mean you can not make up the points. Specifically if the heat you DNF is the one in which you had your highest grid draw. In that case you could potentially only be able to gain a few points but if it was a heat where you had a front grid draw then it is obviously more critical.

I have had a look at the speedway format of the grid draw, reverse grid and then the various "B" and "A" Finals etc. This format seems to give the drivers the ability to make up positions if they have a bad heat and reward the top drivers with grid positions straight into the "A" final.

That type of format would allow a good driver to still work their way through from a "B" Final to the back of the "A" Final and eventually a place.

I believe that you need sufficient laps in the "B" and "A" Finals to allow the drivers to sort themselves out. This may assist with the "all or nothing" approach in the first corner.

The speedway guys may be able to assist with this question. As the Final is based on finishing order over the line, do drivers simply get disqualified for driving infringements as there are no points?

[roundie]

Jun 3, 2010 18:54:20 GMT 9.5 John said:

Some good discussion points but dropping a heat in the current 20 point system does not necessarily mean you can not make up the points. Specifically if the heat you DNF is the one in which you had your highest grid draw. In that case you could potentially only be able to gain a few points but if it was a heat where you had a front grid draw then it is obviously more critical.

Hey, sorted my login. At the state titles I finished equal 3rd and lost on a count back. I finished 1st, 10th, 1st, 6th and in the final 2nd. The 10th place was a result of coming together with another kart and losing a chain from one of the motors. I managed to finish all races, bearing in mind the 6th spot I started from about 12th. This still wasn't enough. With the old 26 point system I would have placed better, or in the finals count type system 2nd. This isn't the reason I would like change. I have always believed it would be a better system.

[roundie]

Jun 3, 2010 8:28:33 GMT 9.5 outlaw19 said:

These are the sort of things that need bringing up at rule changes meeting. Unfortunately it is too late for this year as they closed Monday 31st May. Put the detail there and put your rationale for discussion. Some things could have merit to them. Good comments worth discussing

I think you will find the option / rule already exists. Clubs can run this format if they please. The clubs need to try it and see. It has been proven that this format works on the woodsy dash for cash meets.

[kart 18]

I reckon they should have 20 karts in the final as you can run that in a heat but why not the final?

Also I think the finals should have more points allocated on where you finish. Maybe start with 25 points then 20 and so on. Just as it is a final so it should have more of a weighting.

[John]

The old 26 point system was actually quite unfair as it had large discrepancies in points depending where you started. That is why the 20 point system was introduced.

If you are going to look at reviewing the race format then you need to take a large step back and start from scratch.

It may have changed now but the AKA Nationals I raced in some years ago had a time trial then you started the race based on best time to pole, next fastest on 2 etc. The 0 point system was used and from then on it was best to the front, best to the front and then first over the line was the winner. Although it may sound good if you had a bad time trial you were way back in the field as they went up to 50 from memory.

You basically either have to use an initial time trial or random draw to start the process. Time Trials are very time consuming so I would suggest that the initial grid allocation be handles by a random draw. Then to balance it I would suggest that you need a reverse draw. A point system would be required for these two races.

Then there are a number of options available and I suggest at this point forget any point system.

What about...

Race 3: Best to the front
Race 4: Finishing order of Race 3
Race 5: Finishing order of Race 4

Meeting Position will be finishing order of Race 5 or if only 4 races then finishing order of race 4.

I understand the comments made earlier about a DNF making it very hard to win and in these types of systems you could of course start from the back and win...BUT...you could equally have won every race up to the last and start on pole and then DNF.

It is a good topic and lots of discussion is required to get some additional ideas.

[John]

Some more thoughts for you...

I believe that it all depends on your perspective at a given time. For example if you had a DNF in a heat where you started on pole and had the potential to gain top points you would be leaning towards a Final with Meeting Positions based on where you finish. On the other hand if you had managed to win all 4 heats and were sitting in a comfortable position for taking out the Title then you may tend towards the existing system of Meeting Position being based on total points.

Should the driver that has driven consistently and maintained his kart to finish each race be penalized by having a "sudden death" Final for the Title where somebody that hasn't can take the Title based on a single race.

I do recognize that there are cases where drivers DNF through no fault of their own or a rock happens to be in a bad position and breaks a chain etc.

You also need to take into consideration "oversubscribed classes" in any race format you consider.

I have done probably more work on point and grid systems than most people and believe that the AIDKA grid format is quite fair. The current point system could be tweaked slightly to give points to the drivers in positions 17, 18, 19 and 20 for larger classes. But as previously mentioned it is a vast improvement in terms of fairness to the original 26 point system.

Looking at the comment relating to a DNF having the potential to put a driver out of the running then what about a simple change such as still having the 4 Heats and Final (time permitting) all based on points but have the 4 Heats as drop the worst result. It may not always get you back in the running but it does give some allowance for the DNF that is outside of a drivers control.

There are a couple of options. You could just make it that you drop the worst result for Heats 1 to 4 only so it is calculated prior to the Final and affects the Final grid position and points to that stage of the event. Another option is to make it drop the worst round including the Final which would allow a driver to DNF the Final and could still be in the running for the Title positions.

[lyonsy]

speedway is generally 3 heat's and a final a front a mid and a rear grid draw then a final
or 5 heat's and a final with a front and mid a rear then ether a combination of of front mid or rear depending on how the first lot of heat's went etc, they they have the option of dropping your worst heat or all heat's count (i prefer all heat's count)
then a final
finals depends on amount of kart's if you had 40 you would have a B main then a A main if you have 50 kart's you would have a C main then a B main then a A main so theoretical the winner could come from the C main.
does that happen yes the current speedcar aust champ won it from the b main.
also if the current title holder does not qualify they can elect to start rof in the final to give them a chance to defend there title.

IMO opion the best race's to watch are those with the best driver's buried in a pack and they have to fight there way through they always produce good racing, pre finals just lead to boring processional racing unless one of the top driver's had a dnf in a heat

the system you have i wouldn't like to race under if you want to to do that way then have it as a series not a single event.

as for sheep station's iam sure the heat racing is just as intense as a final would be it is in speedway.

as has been said a final is final if the winner is not determined there it is not a final it a heat or round and the only final part about is it is the final round/heat

[roundie]

NASR karting runs a very similar format to AIDKA. 4 heats and a final, just the final counts

[Kart 18]

Well for the Adelaide Classic or Nationals meeting whatever it is called.... They are running winner takes all finals for all classes. If the 200s can do it at the dash for cash no reason why every other class can not.

[John]

Whatever format you use there will always be somebody that would have faired better under a different system.

Example being a driver winning all 4 heats on pole for the Final and say for example has a substantial points tally compared to the next best driver. He has a problem and finishes 4th so loses out on a winner takes all but could have been 1st on a points system.

So whatever the format there will be advantages for some and disadvantages for others just depending on how everything falls into place for the event.

With a winner takes all it is fairly well down to a single race so the number of races could even be reduced from five to four to save time at larger event. Possibly draw, reverse draw, pre final grid based on points from Heats 1 and 2 and then the final grid based on finishing position of pre final with meeting position being the finishing position of the final.

If you start to use transponders for large events then there could be a qualifying session to get lap times. Then you can have Race 1 grid fastest qualifying time to front, race 2 grid finishing order of race 1, race 3 grid finishing order of race 2 and race 4 grid finishing order of race 3 with the meeting position being the finishing order of the last race.

This will then put the fastest driver head to head for every race. This allows drivers to work their way forward with good results but there is also a down side and so a bad finish or DNF will put you down the back.

Interesting to read all of your different ideas as there are all sorts of formats possible.